• Vitina Blumenthal

How Poor Quality Sleep Affects Your Mental and Physical Health with Shane Heath



How much coffee, is too much? The answer is remarkably different for everyone as I’m sure you’re aware. But hey, I’m not here to discuss the ins and outs of coffee consumption. That would most likely put you to sleep regardless of whether you’ve just had a cup of coffee yourself. I’m here to introduce you to one man who found he was using coffee as a crutch, had trouble sleeping properly as a result and felt he needed to drastically change his life.


Shane Heath has been interested in health and wellbeing since a very young age. He researched ayurvedic medicine, trained in the martial art, Jiu-Jitsu of which his teacher also incorporated aspects of yoga and breath work, and he advocated for eating a plant-based diet. Although Shane loved the wellness industry he didn’t imagine he would ever find himself working in this space.


Shane has a fine arts degree and after college found himself working in the tech industry in Silicone Valley. It wasn’t until he was invited to spend 6 months in Goa, India as an artist in residence, that his life began to transformed and he began to explore the possibilities in a new venture.


Shane is the co-founder of MUD\WTR™, a coffee alternative consisting of organic ingredients lauded by cultures old and young for their health and performance benefits.


Follow along on my journey over at @WanderfulSoul and @YourSoulCompass. Make sure to subscribe to the Soul Compass podcast on your favourite podcasting platform.





SOME TOPICS WE COVERED:

  • Using visualization to manifest

  • The fear of failure and how to get through that

  • Letting go of being the chameleon and stepping into your authentic self

  • Why the 9-5 grind culture no longer serves the new world of work

  • The effects of caffeine on your mental and physical health

  • The negative effects of poor sleep routines

  • Why it’s important to have a solid morning routine







Shane: If you can cut through the noise and the fat as part of the morning ritual of like allowing yourself some time to listen in, there's a lot of answers there including your intuition and including how you should be. I think if you're courageous enough to act on those feelings, I think that that's where really cool things happen.


Vitina: Namaste and welcome, I'm Vitina Blumenthal and you're listening to the Soul Compass podcast. I'm here to help you find your inner calm and deepen your self-discovery journey. Take this moment and focus on yourself. For your mental health, your ability to find ease in your everyday life and your emotional well-being. It is so important that you nourish yourself not only physically but also emotionally and mentally. Here at Soul Compass, you'll learn practical tips from experts who will leave you with a sharper focus and a renewed commitment to yourself.


Hello and welcome to another Soul Compass episode, our 16th episode. I’m just really excited today. Not only do we have an awesome guest but I also get to spend the next thirty minutes with you. As you’re listening to this I am currently in the jungles of Mexico right now taking a very small intimate group of people who are dedicated to the inner journey. A big reason why I wanted to start the Soul Compass is you don’t have to start doing this work in the jungle of Mexico and traveling the world. You can start this work wherever you are. Maybe you’re already on this journey. Maybe you’re just getting started, but welcome. Welcome to the wild side.


A big passion of mine is mental and emotional wellbeing and today’s guest, we get to dive into that a little bit. I’m always curious on ways that we can continue enhancing our mental and emotional health.


But before we get started if you’re new to this, we always do a check in at the beginning of the episodes.

If you’re driving, just being mindful and just sitting up a little bit taller. Reaching tall through the crown and pressing the sit bones into your seat.


If you’re at work listening to this, just uncrossing your legs planting both soles of the feet onto the earth.

If you happen to be seated, finding a cross-legged position.


If it’s safe to do so, placing your hands on your lap and closing your eyes if you’re not driving.


Taking a deep breath in through the nose, and as you exhale can you allow the shoulders to drop away from your ears a little bit more.


Taking another deep inhale.


And as you exhale can you soften the muscles in your face, your forehead, your jaw. Letting go of any unnecessary tension that you’re holding onto at the moment.


Just checking in.


Are there any body parts that are speaking to you today.


Are there any sensations in the body?


Just taking note. Being the observer. And try not to add any judgement onto the observations.


Noticing and checking in where you’re at mentally today.


And just observing. Knowing that wherever you’re at right now at this moment is exactly where you’re meant to be. Don’t try and change anything.


And then slowly moving your awareness to your energetic body.


Just noticing where you’re at energetically.


Slowly allowing any thoughts to dissolve.


Taking one more breath together. Taking a deep inhale in through the nose, and exhale to let it go.

And whenever you’re ready you can gently flutter your eyes open and we’ll get started with today’s episode.


I often ask myself this question and I’m going to ask this to you today. How much coffee, is too much coffee? The answer is remarkably different for everyone as I’m sure you’re aware. But hey, I’m not here to discuss the ins and outs of coffee consumption. That would most likely put you to sleep regardless of whether you’ve just had a cup of coffee yourself. I’m here to introduce you to one man who found he was using coffee as a crutch, had trouble sleeping properly as a result and felt he needed to drastically change his life.


Shane Heath has been interested in health and wellbeing since a very young age. He researched ayurvedic medicine, trained in the martial art, Jiu-Jitsu of which his teacher also incorporated aspects of yoga and breath work, and he advocated for eating a plant-based diet. Although Shane loved the wellness industry he didn’t imagine he would ever find himself working in this space.


Shane has a fine arts degree and after college found himself working in the tech industry in Silicone Valley. It wasn’t until he was invited to spend 6 months in Goa, India as an artist in residence, that his life began to transformed and he began to explore the possibilities in a new venture.


Shane is the co-founder of MUD\WTR™, a coffee alternative consisting of organic ingredients lauded by cultures old and young for their health and performance benefits.


Shane and I discuss many topics today, but a few to spike your interests, we talk about:

  • Using visualisation to manifest

  • The fear of failure and how to get through that

  • Letting go of being the chameleon and stepping into your authentic self

  • Why the 9-5 grind culture no longer serves the new world of work

  • The effects of caffeine on your mental and physical health

  • The negative effects of poor sleep routines

  • Why it’s important to have a solid morning routine


Without further ado, let’s dive into this week’s episode.


[music]


Shane, I'm so excited to welcome you on to the podcast today. Thank you so much for agreeing to join us.


Shane: Thanks for having me.


Vitina: On Soul Compass, we are all about keeping it real. We love to keep it authentic. I know that you have a really, really cool story to share. I've read about it, so I feel like I have these tidbits of information, but I really think that our viewers would benefit from hearing your journey. I know that when you get into a business that's a little more spiritually focused and your mission is something greater than yourself, there usually tends to be a catalyst that sparks this journey. I'm just curious to know what that catalyst was for you.


Shane: My background is in design, I've been working in the tech space for around eight years designing everything from brands to websites to mobile apps and I fell into that paradigm that coffee was going to allow me to do more, do it faster. I was working in Silicon Valley, buying into that whole hustle culture mentality, but I also had this other side to myself where I was also a fine artist. I went to school for both design and art and grew up in Santa Cruz and was early on interested in living more of a progressive lifestyle, eating healthy. I didn't necessarily live in a house that was organic or nothing, but when I was in college I was very drawn to Ayurvedic diets and yoga. I've changed jujitsu a lot.


I don’t know if you follow Jui Jitsu, but one of the main practitioners is a guy named Rickson Gracie. He's still around now, but in his day he was just like the God of Jui Jitsu, but what was interesting about him is he incorporated yoga and breath work and diet into this world there was typically this macho fight and grind it out. A lot of the UFC fighters were like these big steroid users and he was the best that he went undefeated and also was doing like cold baths and breathing and yoga. I always saw yoga as being yoga in these, I guess you can call them like Eastern medicine and in spiritual work as being beneficial to my performance, both in the office and not the gym.


Whereas maybe some people might have these reservations of, "Oh, that's a feminine thing to do," at least back seeing this shift happen now, which is a beautiful thing where people are adopting a plant-based diet. People are using meditation and visualization for success. I guess early on I was just drawn to that naturally. Back to working in Silicon Valley, I was drinking tons of coffee, just started to notice the negative side effects of caffeine.


At least for me, I saw other people drinking it and I never really questioned it until I just noticed anxiety build up. I noticed how it was affecting my sleep cycles. If you're not sleeping, it can pretty much systematically create your moods and give you depression. At the end of the day I was trying to get really good at what I was doing, whether it was jujitsu or design and I was just like, “I'm reliant on this stuff just for baseline level of energy, the same way that somebody would be relying on a sleeping pill to fall asleep.” I just felt like, "That's a crush, I got to find something different."


Right around that time I got invited to do artists and residency program in Goa India. At that time I had never traveled outside of Mexico and Canada. I've just been like working the whole time and I was just so ready on so many levels on the art side, on being able to make a change in my diet. Then also just finding out more about myself in the world. I took a leave of absence from work and lived in Goa for six months.


It was at a space called Vaayu and we're trying to make people more or relate more with the ocean, with the environment, through surfing and through music and through art the same way that lightning in a bottle and maybe Burning Man is bringing people together and building a new relationship with the environment where it's like leave no trace and being more conscious about how we communicate and how we protect the environment. I fell in love with Chai, came home it was using Chai as a base and then just started to build in different ingredients that fit my lifestyle.


Vitina: I've been to India a few times and the problem that I always found when I came back home is that I couldn't get the Chai like I got in India. Was that kind of a driver for you?


Shane: A little bit so, the Chai in India, when you did it on the street, it's typically like a lot of sugar and milk. It does have a certain--


Vitina: That's why I like it. [laughs]


Shane: It's really, really good, but I ended up finding this company called Blue Lotus Chai. In the States it is really tough to find good Chai, either because you can get concentrated Chai like Chai from concentrate that you just do it and that's always going to be packed with sugar or some preservative. It's not traditional Chai it’s not necessarily healthy for you, especially if you go to Starbucks where it's just literally syrup that they've put in.


Vitina: Totally.


Shane: Then a lot of the powders as well. They might have some binders and they might have some sweeteners too, but Blue Lotus is sourced from India and it's really concentrated so you don't have to add a lot of it, but it comes in a powder and you mix it in and it's got one seventh of caffeine or coffee organic, a really good spice to it and no sugar added. No, like nothing's added. It's just the spices and the black tea. That was what I found.


Then it was just a matter of if I'm going to drink something every morning basically before pursuing the pursuits that I want in the office or creatively or physically, why not make this morning ritual, something that addresses mind, body, soul, everything. There's nothing out there that can meet that need. It's like coffee's an amazing vessel for caffeine. A lot of teas might have a little less caffeine.


Maybe green tea has some health being in it to balance out the jitters and spike, but it’s still too much caffeine and it's really just only caffeine. I started doing research, which is something I've always been interested in doing and drew back on some of the Ayurvedic stuff that I was doing earlier in my life and added tumeric for inflammation. I was doing intermittent fasting so I added cinnamon and added cacoa to round out this flavor profile, public mood and then the mushrooms came into my life too.


Vitina: That's awesome. I'm curious to know what your morning ritual is?


Shane: I've always taken my morning ritual, very-- I guess you could call it seriously, but I think it's just very important to my life is very important for my mood, but also for-- I just tend to like draw more things into my life that are aligned with my future dreams if I have them. This year I've started to wake up earlier, which is a new thing for me. I've started the year waking up like red around sunrise, around 6:00 AM. I have my phone on airplane mode which I think is a really important thing to do is fall asleep and give yourself some time before bed with your phone off and not having to worry about notifications and whatnot.


Then the same thing in the morning. Give yourself some time to ease into the day and realize that you're actually existing, that you're here, you're breathing, all of these things that are normally when you wake up and you just dive into Instagram and you're like pretty much living someone else's life. We all mirror neurons. You're like watChaing videos and photos and like you're not even present at all. In the morning I think you have the highest capacity for presence.


I try to use that, sit up, meditate for maybe just like 10 minutes and I just tap into who I am, my body, it's like very simple. It's breathing. I'm just like appreciating that I'm alive. Then I'll drink a lot of water and then I typically go and work out or some sorts. I live really close to the beach on Venice. A lot of times I'll just do a beach run and halfway through I sit down and I've been doing a lot of breath work lately and then I've been doing a lot of visualization.


Vitina: Can you explain a little more?


Shane: Yes, it's pretty cool. Since I was really young, I've always been drawn to this power, like manifesting before I even knew about it. Before the secret came out or whatever. I just remember being young and sitting in my bed and wondering if I could feel like something existed or if I was doing something else. If like over time it would happen. It was so trippy and then the secret came out and I was like, "Whoa, people are talking about that."


Vitina: I actually do this already. [laughs]


Shane: Then I read Dr. Joe Dispenza's book called You Are The Placebo and not also blew my mind. He does some amazing work and he just goes really deep into the neuroscience of that. I really feel like it works for me. It really benefits my life. Now what I do is after I breathe or do a breath work, I feel like my mind is in the state that should Joe Dispenza talks about. It's this neuroplasticity. You're in a believable mind state. It's almost like a psychedelic state a little bit where you can visualize things better and stronger and apply beliefs to it with more emphasis.


I created a video on my phone of different things I want. I wrote 10 things down that I'm grateful for that haven't happened yet, which is a really cool practice to do. It brings up a lot and so I've built like a mood board around each one of these things I'm grateful for. I just sit there with like a song that I really like after breathing that's like really cool meditative mood. Then I just sit there and like say, "Thank you for these things that are coming in."


Vitina: Well. Okay, I have a question for you about the fear around it because I think manifestation is like this buzzword right now. What are you scared of when you're writing the things down that you're grateful for that haven't happened yet?


Shane: I think there's like a natural fear around committing that some people have. I'm going to go all in and go after this dream but you don't really want to because if you do that and then you fail, it hurts so that it's like a fear of failure, I think is what typically is there. I think once you notice that you can dance with it a little bit and then I want to break it down because at the end of the day it's like, “Why be afraid of that?” It's really what you want and you're not going to die from, I guess, you could die from pursuing certain things that you might want. It's like--


Vitina: Skydiving, something on a big extreme, totally.


Shane: I think understanding or at least acknowledging the fear instead of I would love this to happen someday and just living your life and never fully pursuing it because you never at least acknowledge whether or not you wanted to face that fear or not. Now it's like these things and like, when I wrote them down, I noticed the feelings that came up and some of it was like, “Wait how is that going to change my life? Am I ready? Am I worthy of this? Who am I to say I deserve this and these things?”


Then I think that's the start. Over time, you become into this state of like, “I am this. I already have it. I can do this”, and that's how real change happens, I think. Because it's very easy to just live in the cycles of, yes, maybe you get inspired here and there but then the fear comes back and then you just end up just staying where you're at. Not the path that you keep pursuing something but that's just my life. I love growing, I love creating, and part of my life expression is just doing these things and finding out more about myself for creating more.


Vitina: Okay. I know we got off track because I was digging and asking questions. The ritual that you do in the morning would be writing down things that you haven't happened yet that you're grateful for?


Shane: Yes, sort of artist, I already did that. I guess you can simplify your morning ritual down to meditate, drink water, visualize, sweat. Keep your phone on airplane mode.


Vitina: I love that one. Keep it on airplane mode but sometimes I get a little bit nervous. I put mine on the nighttime silent mode because people who really know me and if there is an emergency, they can call twice and get through to me. If I have my phone on airplane mode, I don't have a house phone anymore. One other question I had for you because you mentioned that you are into Ayurveda, yoga, these more spiritual practices maybe before, let's say, the average population was. I'm curious to know as a male in the spiritual world and also living in Silicon Valley, how was that for you? Were you able to express yourself fully or did you feel you had to hide that from the people that you were working with?


Shane: I think I had a girlfriend early on who was really into yoga and then her best friend was really into Ayurveda and I, in general, have always been very interested in like I said, when I was younger, I was really interested in this manifesting.


That was only when I was 14, 13. I didn't have anybody to talk to you about it or I didn't feel like there's a community around me to discuss. This was things that I've kept inside. It just interesting things thoughts about my mind, about like capacity, and about the experience, about God.


I had so much inside me that I didn't really get to let out and then in college, I would meet various people or get to do certain things like yoga or Ayurveda cleanses and I was like this is resonating with that thing inside of me that I feel like I'm a chameleon. I can fit in amongst multiple different types of fem groups but I'm also not afraid to express myself in certain ways.


I remember that there's a time in college I see that in my own. All my friends are just partying. I was dressed up that was a MariaChai included but I was also on an Ayurvedic fast. I was on a cleanse and I was drinking all these weird teas, and my friends were eating Dominos Pizza, and they're like, “Dude, Shane's so weird. What the hell he's painting downstairs and doing photos?”


I think when you act out of your feminine intuition it's like the universe starts to reward you in cool ways and I feel like it's led me down paths. I think early on, maybe there was a little fear around how that would affect my friendships or I would get judged or whatnot, but maybe it's just a matter of you start to curate your friends, I guess. Luckily I didn’t lose any friends because of it. I think a lot of my friends appreciated that about me and I'm loving this now. You know what I mean? We can connect on it now and so deep in their connection.


Vitina: Probably, because you were being a little bit more authentic too. Once you let go of the mask of having to be the chameleon and just allowing your true self to shine through. That's awesome.


Shane: I think that's the huge underlying theme of hopefully how I act but also what it is, is not just doing things because that's the status quo or because that's the prescriptions. You don't eat what you eat. Visit a food pyramid like find out what works for you. Obviously, if you like the food pyramid, you'd probably be really unhealthy. Internally, we have so much wisdom and if you can cut through the noise and the fat as part of the morning ritual is like allowing yourself some time to listen in.


There's a lot of answers there including your intuition and including how you should be. I think all of these things are things are deep with feelings. You can feel what's right. If you're courageous enough to act on those feelings, I think that that's where really cool things happen.


Vitina: I love it. I'm curious to know, well, for people who cannot actually see you right now, Shane is in his photo booth/sauna and it's awesome. I'm curious to know not that a sauna is spiritual but I know that you do things a little bit differently within MUD/WTR but how do you incorporate spirituality into your business as a founder, as a CEO of your company? How do you incorporate that and lead as a role model?


Shane: You call it spirituality but definitely mindfulness. I love spirituality. I love that world. Where whom you communicate, it's all about being present, being mindful about how we work, how we sleep, how we're feeling. I've co-founded two other companies before and I've worked in the tech space for a long time. Many of those years, I've been in that hustle culture of like you just need to work, work, work, drink more coffee, sleep less, and get more done.


I think that that's like an old paradigm. I think that the hustle culture and the whole thought that eight hours of work equals eight hours of output is outdated. That was made around assembly lines in factory working where it literally was like you're sitting there and you're doing one specific task. Now, it's all about creativity. It's like how are you solving problems? How are you? Are you planning for the future? How are you creating a team that's working in synergistically to create a bigger thing, so that's a lot more nuanced, a lot more subtle.


It's not about how much you work, it's about how you work if you're doing it with and what you're working on. All of us were drinking MUD which is a great start. I put on our board and we can have a daily ritual that's like an aspiration and it's like my morning ritual but it's like if you want to do it, you can and it's fasting. It's like waking up, and meditating, and visualizing, and drinking water, and all these things. We also start every day with just a little check-in. We do it through Slack, which is an internal communication tool and we have an automated chatbot that queues up a couple of questions like, “How well did you sleep tonight or last night, on a scale of one to 10? What are you grateful for and what would you excited about yesterday?”


This kind of things and it gives us-- It's a really cool thing for yourself but to share with a team holds you accountable. Everyone Wednesday we do a 24-hour fast from our phones from meetings, so no phones in the office no meetings can be scheduled. Then in 24-hours no food, so it's also like a fast.


Vitina: I love that.


Shane: It's so cool. It's been an amazing thing. Fasting is one of the biggest-- This is coming out more and more from all the leading researchers especially around longevity, but also around performance is just eating less and sleeping more are the two biggest bio hacks quote. It's so simple and you don't need to buy anything. You need to buy less. Buy less foods, sleep more in the benefits you get from that, it's going to be more than any pill you can take.


Vitina: As a team, how have you seen the benefits within the office?


Shane: Back to the founder story, I started a company by myself. I was growing it in my home, in my art studio, and then it just got insane. I had a previous co-founder from another company and he was advising me and he has amazing track record of experiences started a couple of successful companies and was actually the CEO of the previous company that I was at. He's advising me but he's also a coffee drinker. He was a coffee drinker throughout that first six months. He was drinking four cups a day. He was also prescribed some anxiety meds. Throughout that process, he became closer and closer to the company and was just like, “At least I need to try this out.”


I mean quit coffee for a week give us a chat. Within two days, he doesn't drink coffee since. He was able to kick his anxiety meds. I'm not saying that don't take your anxiety meds but the effect that had on his ability to sleep in his reduction, and anxiety and his mood, he’s been so changed just by that simple shift. Since then, he's gone on a wide range of things. He was very conservative and was just felt a little trapped by some of the mental issues he's dealing with and has since then done some work with plant medicine work and going on down that path.


I think that our production level, the scale that we've gotten with just two people, we recently brought on a customer support engineer, has been largely attributed to how we work. It's not the amount of work. We both check ourselves. We're both like, go home, go sleep. You need to go to work out. These things are crucial in the long term care business, so we're not necessarily working more than people, we are working better I think.


Vitina: Working smart, that's incredible. I can totally relate to the coffee story, I went to a nutritionist at one point and my adrenal glands were just on overdrive. I couldn't sleep obviously then you're really relying on the caffeine. I started drinking mushroom coffee which had been a big switch for me in the sleep. When you talk about sleep as being part of your ritual and having a good sleep and having an undisturbed sleep it's a game-changer for your mindset, your life the anxiety and stress levels, it's incredible. I'm curious to know how did coffee affect your work in business, once you especially went to India, discovered Chai and then came back home?


Shane: Yes. I've always been somewhat of an anxious person as well as another co-founder and suffered through doubts of depression and whatnot. I think it's just I overthink things and it's a benefit but also a curse in some ways. Also, I found out that a stat recently that 50 percent of the population has this certain gene around metabolizing caffeine and they're not able to efficiently metabolize caffeine essentially 50 percent of the population.


That can lead to how it affects your sleep because coffee or caffeine inherently has a six-hour half-life, but it can be exaggerated out for certain people and then that can also exaggerate how your perception of stress your perception of all these things. I think I got my genetic test back and I'm definitely on that side. Very slow metabolization of caffeine, and I think for me, it is yes like you said the sleep thing. After I started sleeping I realize that my baseline level of good sleep felt like, it was way off.


Yes, I think being able to look forward to getting a good night's rest and feeling like I'm getting refreshed compliments just the research that I've done on it with Matthew Walker's new book called Why We Sleep and I think that over the next couple of years it's going to get way more important. Sleep wasn't really discussed I don't feel over the last 10 years. I don't feel it was ever that huge of a thing which is I guess you go to sleep you wake them up top performers typically slept less I would say that was like, "You're not working hard enough."


Vitina: Yes. Well, I'm associated with an organization called Women's Brain Health and 70 percent of the Alzheimer's patients in the world are women. This is why I'm fascinated by the brain especially from the female perspective but I think all the preventative measures are beneficial for everyone essentially but one of the biggest factors especially in your 20s, 30s if you're not getting enough sleep you're at higher risk for brain aging diseases when you're older. Sleep is probably one of the biggest killers that affects your brain health. I remember being in my early 20s hardly getting any sleep and I was working in the music entertainment industry and I couldn't remember things for the life of me.


Shane: Yes.


Vitina: It's wild how sleep has changed that so much and obviously meditation and rituals you're expressing but, man sleep is numero uno.


Shane: Yes I know. Yes, we're coming out with a dream blend. I'm really excited about it. It's going to be a similar flavor profile to MUD but it will have a Chai rooibos tea, so no caffeine. We’ll have turkey tail and then I'll have valerian root, ashwagandha, passionflower, and then althenian in it. As it blends it tastes amazing I've been taking it for about four months now. I was just realizing that there's so many beverages out there including ours that are sort of synonymous with waking up.


Morning ritual, how we rise, there's a lot of people curating products towards that experience because it's associated with work. It's like, “What do you drink before you go in and be productive.” But there's nothing that's synonymous with sleep yet. There's no coffee, tea, beverage. I guess alcohol would be the most synonymous and all the studies are showing that alcohol despite how people drink a nightcap and whatnot and helps them relax it actually inhibits your ability to fall into deep sleep to restore them sleep, the same way that sleeping pills also do they give you kind of this it's like a fake sleep you are out but you're not getting deep sleep. Yes, we're coming out with a product that hopefully can serve that role and give you something to build an evening ritual around, which I think could be the next great thing.


Vitina: That's awesome. I cannot wait to try it. Where can people find MUD/WTR and what is called Dream--


Shane: Dream blend.


Vitina: - Dream blend.


Shane: You can go to mudwtr.com. The Dream blend will probably come out later this year like sometime in wintertime. We're about to launch a coconut creamer, it's a coconut milk and MCT powdered creamer. You could add to your latte and it turns it in to a frothy latte. Yes, check us out on Instagram that's where we kind of keep-- We both inform so we talk about our ingredients and our inspiration, my story and whatnot. We also talk about when our new releases that are coming out as well.


Vitina: Amazing. We’ll definitely link all of those the social media links and the website and the show notes for those of you who are listening you can head there. If you want to check a little bit more about MUD/WTR and also Shane's story. Shane, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story and being so authentic. It's been such a treat.


Shane: I had a blast.

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